Thursday, June 29, 2006
Lusa
Ana Pessoa, Minister of Estate and the Public Administration of East Timor, and member of Fretilin’s Central Committee, is a blunt woman, of strong convictions. Formed as a Jurist, thinks it is “unbelievable” that President Xanana Gusmão has demanded the dismissal of PM Mari Alkatiri in a letter sent together with a recording of the Australian television [Four Corners], but believes the institutional crisis may still be solved through negotiation and in respecting legality and the constitutional norms.
Convinced, as Alkatiri and Lu-Olo (President of the Parliament), that there are forces concerned in making of East Timor a “Failed State”, that should be under guardianship at least until the 2007 elections, came to Lisbon to ask for the support from CPLP [Community of Portuguese Language Countries].
LUSA: The UN is accused of not having avoided making the Timorese Armed and Security Forces politically and instrumental, which would have originated the current institutional crisis…
ANA PESSOA: The main positive aspect of the UN interventions is multilateralism, which also brings negative consequences, but we cannot in any way blame the UN for everything that happened now. For the constitution of the armed forces UNTAET had advisors from 40 different nationalities e this necessarily creates confusion. There is not a model, a doctrine, a clear strategy, which is serious for the formation of an army and a police force in a country such as East Timor, without institutional traditions and with negative references, inherited from the foreign military occupation.
L: Were not the evaluation criteria for the recruitment of public servants, police and military, a factor of tension? There are people who have been excluded because they did not speak Portuguese…
AP: It is absolutely false, the contrary actually happened. When I was Minister of Internal Administration in the transitional government, UNTAET complained of not finding qualified Timorese to occupy places in the public administration and I went to assist to the selection interviews. I verified they were done in English or in Bahasa Indonesia. They explained me that English was UN’s working language. I said: “Well than hire interpreters. You are not recruiting public servants for the UN but for the Timorese State, whose official languages are Tetum and Portuguese”. To be able to speak English may be a supplementary qualification, never a selection criterion. The majority of the Timorese does not speak English and many do not master the Portuguese, because during the Indonesian occupation speaking Portuguese was related to the guerrilla, one could be arrested, tortured, killed. Until today, only Tetum has been required and only recently have we been requiring exams in Portuguese. In my Ministry, I only accept documents in Tetum or in Portuguese. If they come in English or in Bahasa, they go back.
L: The fact that there are police officials that came from the Indonesian police, did that create problems?
AP: The recruitment of the National Police of East Timor (PNTL) was entirely done by UNTAET. They have incorporated more than 100 Indonesian officers and agents, some of which had a very bad record, referred to as torturers. That was what created the first division between those so-called “nationalists” and the group of the “autonomists”, former agents of the Indonesian police which were incorporated in the PNTL in the name of the national reconciliation. I used to say that the Police was structured to become un-structured during the first crisis. That is what happened.
L: The creation of Special Forces has also created an “indisposition” and appears now to be related to paramilitary groups for self-defence.
AP: In January 2003, militias infiltrated through the border with West Timor attacked villages and killed undefended population in the Atsabe region. Our Police, which had some 15 men armed with guns, was not capable of reacting. We sent the military of the Defence and Security Forces (FDSTL) and we were accused of violations of human rights.
This was when it was decided to create the Police Special Reserve, to act outside urban areas, according to the “Jungle Police” in Malaysia. Its members were recruited within the PNTL; they should at least have been in duty for 6 months and no disciplinary antecedent. They have received a hard training, the kind of rangers, adequate equipment and automatic weapons.
L: How did weapons appear in the hands of civilians?
AP: There are weapons in the hands of civilians because the Police command failed. The arsenals were stolen; there are weapons in the hands of people that we do not clearly know if they are civilians or police who took their uniforms out. I do not believe that more weapons entered Timor in a clandestine way. There are many speculations that are taken advantage of, especially by the Australians, to prove there is uncontrolled by the Government. There is currently an inventory being made of the existent weapons, and those who are missing. The FDTL did it immediately because everything was under control. In the Police, it was not.
L: Do the FDTL have no problems?
AP: They have a command and when there is a command, there is discipline, luckily.
L: Who are the armed groups that Rogério Lobato admitted he has give authorization to?
AP: I do not know. I am only certain of one thing: they are not from Fretilin. As Lu-Olo (President of Fretilin and the Parliament) said, Fretilin does not have armed militias, it is not and it never was a terrorist party, like some Press wants to make believe. I also do not know Railos, but I have received one SMS from him on my mobile, on the 12th of June. In the SMS I received by mistake (it was directed to Lu-Olo), Railos self-proclaimed leader of the “Safeguard Group of the People and the Nation” and he said, in Tetum, that he knew that Fretilin did not distribute weapons, and that Alkatiri did it. I believe they are trying to divide Fretilin in order to provoke the Government’s fall.
L: In an opinion article, your son Loro Ramos Horta accuses Mari Alkatiri and Xanana Gusmão of being responsible for the current situation (see “War Lords” – Expresso, 10.06.2006).
AP: My son was infuriated and very worried with what might happened to us, to me and to my little son, and called me to say that I should ask for asylum in an Embassy. He then published an horrible article and I was the one who called him to say “I thought you were an academic, but an academic does not write like that. We may have disagreements, but we should not go down to insult. On the other hand, it is your obligation to know what you are talking about. Even when you disagree there must be respect for the country’s institutions, which cost so much blood and suffering”. He feels the need to defend his father, I understand, but whoever reads him will think “like father, like son”.
L: You went to Geneva to speak at the opening session of the UN Human Rights Commission. Did you ask for support to investigate the recent events in Timor?
AP: The competent Timorese authorities have already asked the international support.
L: Mari Alkatiri has declared that the burnt and sacked houses were “surgical operations”…
AP: This is another story. It should be known that the fires, the stolen houses, the threats against people, they all took place massively after the arrival of the Australian troops and after we gave orders to the Timorese military to retreat to their barracks. Everyone was asking the Government to call on the FDTL. But after they returned to the barracks they could not come out again, otherwise they would be disarmed by the Australian.
L: The fact that the Timorese Ambassador at the UN, José Luís Guterres, was a candidate to Fretilin’s Presidency and has publicly criticised the PM and the Government, does that not create a certain confusion?
AP: A citizen does not stop being [a citizen] because he was nominated Ambassador. He has the right to participate in political activities. I think he should prevent himself of certain public manifestations, so that his loyalty does not provoke doubts. Ramos Horta made a remarked in that sense at the Fretilin’s Congress.
L: Is the Justice in conditions to work in East Timor?
AP: After taking control of the armed and security forces, Australia and New Zealand will want to control the Justice. This is actually an old problem. When I was Minister of Justice, it was New Zealand that was in charge of the prisons. At a certain time, I ordered an inspection because I heard rumours of irregularities. They have cheered me with a riot of recluses, which later was found to be orchestrated to compromise the Government. The New Zealanders retreated and after much struggle and much intrigue, Portugal was in charge of this area and the Justice. When I left the Ministry, we had already signed all the cooperation protocols, for the formation of magistrates, etc. But there are those who do not see with good eyes this Portuguese presence and do everything to obstruct the approval of laws, the Penal Code. Now the Australians have disembarked with Police, investigators, and magistrates. They will want to take over the Justice and than the Public Administration. Do not fool yourselves: there is a strategy behind that. They did exactly the same in the Solomon Islands. With the pretext of fighting the gangs, they pushed the Police against the military and were able to put in the Government whoever they wanted to. The problem is time, it is short, and we have less than one year until the next elections.
Ana Pessoa, Minister of Estate and the Public Administration of East Timor, and member of Fretilin’s Central Committee, is a blunt woman, of strong convictions. Formed as a Jurist, thinks it is “unbelievable” that President Xanana Gusmão has demanded the dismissal of PM Mari Alkatiri in a letter sent together with a recording of the Australian television [Four Corners], but believes the institutional crisis may still be solved through negotiation and in respecting legality and the constitutional norms.
Convinced, as Alkatiri and Lu-Olo (President of the Parliament), that there are forces concerned in making of East Timor a “Failed State”, that should be under guardianship at least until the 2007 elections, came to Lisbon to ask for the support from CPLP [Community of Portuguese Language Countries].
LUSA: The UN is accused of not having avoided making the Timorese Armed and Security Forces politically and instrumental, which would have originated the current institutional crisis…
ANA PESSOA: The main positive aspect of the UN interventions is multilateralism, which also brings negative consequences, but we cannot in any way blame the UN for everything that happened now. For the constitution of the armed forces UNTAET had advisors from 40 different nationalities e this necessarily creates confusion. There is not a model, a doctrine, a clear strategy, which is serious for the formation of an army and a police force in a country such as East Timor, without institutional traditions and with negative references, inherited from the foreign military occupation.
L: Were not the evaluation criteria for the recruitment of public servants, police and military, a factor of tension? There are people who have been excluded because they did not speak Portuguese…
AP: It is absolutely false, the contrary actually happened. When I was Minister of Internal Administration in the transitional government, UNTAET complained of not finding qualified Timorese to occupy places in the public administration and I went to assist to the selection interviews. I verified they were done in English or in Bahasa Indonesia. They explained me that English was UN’s working language. I said: “Well than hire interpreters. You are not recruiting public servants for the UN but for the Timorese State, whose official languages are Tetum and Portuguese”. To be able to speak English may be a supplementary qualification, never a selection criterion. The majority of the Timorese does not speak English and many do not master the Portuguese, because during the Indonesian occupation speaking Portuguese was related to the guerrilla, one could be arrested, tortured, killed. Until today, only Tetum has been required and only recently have we been requiring exams in Portuguese. In my Ministry, I only accept documents in Tetum or in Portuguese. If they come in English or in Bahasa, they go back.
L: The fact that there are police officials that came from the Indonesian police, did that create problems?
AP: The recruitment of the National Police of East Timor (PNTL) was entirely done by UNTAET. They have incorporated more than 100 Indonesian officers and agents, some of which had a very bad record, referred to as torturers. That was what created the first division between those so-called “nationalists” and the group of the “autonomists”, former agents of the Indonesian police which were incorporated in the PNTL in the name of the national reconciliation. I used to say that the Police was structured to become un-structured during the first crisis. That is what happened.
L: The creation of Special Forces has also created an “indisposition” and appears now to be related to paramilitary groups for self-defence.
AP: In January 2003, militias infiltrated through the border with West Timor attacked villages and killed undefended population in the Atsabe region. Our Police, which had some 15 men armed with guns, was not capable of reacting. We sent the military of the Defence and Security Forces (FDSTL) and we were accused of violations of human rights.
This was when it was decided to create the Police Special Reserve, to act outside urban areas, according to the “Jungle Police” in Malaysia. Its members were recruited within the PNTL; they should at least have been in duty for 6 months and no disciplinary antecedent. They have received a hard training, the kind of rangers, adequate equipment and automatic weapons.
L: How did weapons appear in the hands of civilians?
AP: There are weapons in the hands of civilians because the Police command failed. The arsenals were stolen; there are weapons in the hands of people that we do not clearly know if they are civilians or police who took their uniforms out. I do not believe that more weapons entered Timor in a clandestine way. There are many speculations that are taken advantage of, especially by the Australians, to prove there is uncontrolled by the Government. There is currently an inventory being made of the existent weapons, and those who are missing. The FDTL did it immediately because everything was under control. In the Police, it was not.
L: Do the FDTL have no problems?
AP: They have a command and when there is a command, there is discipline, luckily.
L: Who are the armed groups that Rogério Lobato admitted he has give authorization to?
AP: I do not know. I am only certain of one thing: they are not from Fretilin. As Lu-Olo (President of Fretilin and the Parliament) said, Fretilin does not have armed militias, it is not and it never was a terrorist party, like some Press wants to make believe. I also do not know Railos, but I have received one SMS from him on my mobile, on the 12th of June. In the SMS I received by mistake (it was directed to Lu-Olo), Railos self-proclaimed leader of the “Safeguard Group of the People and the Nation” and he said, in Tetum, that he knew that Fretilin did not distribute weapons, and that Alkatiri did it. I believe they are trying to divide Fretilin in order to provoke the Government’s fall.
L: In an opinion article, your son Loro Ramos Horta accuses Mari Alkatiri and Xanana Gusmão of being responsible for the current situation (see “War Lords” – Expresso, 10.06.2006).
AP: My son was infuriated and very worried with what might happened to us, to me and to my little son, and called me to say that I should ask for asylum in an Embassy. He then published an horrible article and I was the one who called him to say “I thought you were an academic, but an academic does not write like that. We may have disagreements, but we should not go down to insult. On the other hand, it is your obligation to know what you are talking about. Even when you disagree there must be respect for the country’s institutions, which cost so much blood and suffering”. He feels the need to defend his father, I understand, but whoever reads him will think “like father, like son”.
L: You went to Geneva to speak at the opening session of the UN Human Rights Commission. Did you ask for support to investigate the recent events in Timor?
AP: The competent Timorese authorities have already asked the international support.
L: Mari Alkatiri has declared that the burnt and sacked houses were “surgical operations”…
AP: This is another story. It should be known that the fires, the stolen houses, the threats against people, they all took place massively after the arrival of the Australian troops and after we gave orders to the Timorese military to retreat to their barracks. Everyone was asking the Government to call on the FDTL. But after they returned to the barracks they could not come out again, otherwise they would be disarmed by the Australian.
L: The fact that the Timorese Ambassador at the UN, José Luís Guterres, was a candidate to Fretilin’s Presidency and has publicly criticised the PM and the Government, does that not create a certain confusion?
AP: A citizen does not stop being [a citizen] because he was nominated Ambassador. He has the right to participate in political activities. I think he should prevent himself of certain public manifestations, so that his loyalty does not provoke doubts. Ramos Horta made a remarked in that sense at the Fretilin’s Congress.
L: Is the Justice in conditions to work in East Timor?
AP: After taking control of the armed and security forces, Australia and New Zealand will want to control the Justice. This is actually an old problem. When I was Minister of Justice, it was New Zealand that was in charge of the prisons. At a certain time, I ordered an inspection because I heard rumours of irregularities. They have cheered me with a riot of recluses, which later was found to be orchestrated to compromise the Government. The New Zealanders retreated and after much struggle and much intrigue, Portugal was in charge of this area and the Justice. When I left the Ministry, we had already signed all the cooperation protocols, for the formation of magistrates, etc. But there are those who do not see with good eyes this Portuguese presence and do everything to obstruct the approval of laws, the Penal Code. Now the Australians have disembarked with Police, investigators, and magistrates. They will want to take over the Justice and than the Public Administration. Do not fool yourselves: there is a strategy behind that. They did exactly the same in the Solomon Islands. With the pretext of fighting the gangs, they pushed the Police against the military and were able to put in the Government whoever they wanted to. The problem is time, it is short, and we have less than one year until the next elections.
// posted by nv @ 10:55 AM 
